I have to say that I agree.  If you spend thousands of dollars more, spend two ADDITONAL years in school and have to suffer through so many research, managment and leadership lectures & tests that you are literally pulling your hair out - you deserve compensation for doing such.  LPNs are paid HALF the pay of an RN - but are still nurses who work VERY hard - they go to school HALF of the time that an ADN does......1/2 the school = 1/2 the pay .........    An ADN goes to school HALF the time of a BSN - so they should get HALF the pay as well - which means a BSN should be COMPENSATED......just my 2 cents.

i'm not sure where you get your information on ADN education, but at my school we pretty much went the whole 2 years, 3 if you count all of the prerequisites that were required for us to have before we even applied.  we did have 1 whole month off after going all of 2nd semester and then right into psych. for the summer..and then a week at christmas (woop de doo!) The ONLY difference between an ADN and  BSN (and i know this because my mother, who carries an ADN, BSN and MSN and teaches ADN's) is the extra basic education requirements, and extra nursing management classes.  we both have THE SAME EXACT AMOUNT OF CLINICAL TIME HENCE THE FACT THAT WE BOTH TAKE THE SAME NCLEX!!! so, yes the pay is not half as much..as it shouldn't be....most BSN's make 3% more than ADN's do..

The fact that they even have an LPN to BSN program scares me...

good luck

I think you have to take a look at each program individually, I attended an associate degree program that went to school all year round for three years with only 2 weeks off at christmas and one 2 weeks off between the summer and fall semester. We were either in clinicals or classroom 8 hours a day and need a minimum of 1700 clinical hours to graduate, Our program was integrated with the BSN and we took the same anatomy, physiology, ethics, stats, psyche  courses etc. The BSN program had extra courses in general university classes like philosophy, politics and statistics. For myself I don't think either program was better than the other and I did go back and complete dgree studies but more for self improvement and learning, not because I felt I needed to do it to become a better nurse, Ther are good nurses who graduate from both levels , It is just what you do with what you learn, education is atool but if you don't use it , it is not effective.

That's so weird that RN with BSN in your schools have lesser clinicals than that of a RN-BSN... I just graduated from an RN-BSN last April. Our clinical hours have a total of 2,193 hours to be exact. That includes bedside, psych, OR and community. Our lectures were really long too. Taking all those different fields and topics related to nursing. It took me 4 yrs to graduate in the said program. And we really don't have much break. We had 1st and 2nd semesters and also summer classes. We have our lectures and clinicals 6 days a week. And classes usually start at 7:30 AM or 6am for during clinical duty until 7:30 PM at most. So, I really believe that RN-BSN should receive just compensation for the education we have. No matter if fresh grad or not.

I am an LPN, currently in a bridge program to become a ADN-RN. I work on a med/surg unit in a hospital that allows me to do most  IV push meds and hang blood. I do get paid well, although not as well as the RN, obviously. I have to say, I am not hung up on having my RN, I am doing it for me!! I know that my skills are right up there with most of the rns I work with and exceed many more. AS far as schooling goes...I see it like this; The BSN has 4 yrs to learn all the a ADN learns in 2 yrs, and a LPN has 18 months (this is how long my program was 8-3, m-f. not including prerec's) to learn what the ADN learned in two. Now I know there is extra managment, ect. But as far as skill goes the LPN typically has had more hands on. I have many, many RNS on my floor come to me for advice, assist with ivs and dressings and many other skills. So we could go on about this forever but what ever it is we do, we must be confident in ourselves. We all play an important part of the patient team!

I have to agree. I have worked with some scarey BSN nurses. They might be more qualified to write a paper, but hey I am sorry thats not what we do at the bedside. I am almost done with my BSN and I am by no means a better RN because of it. I am only doing it to further my education. It is all about getting my money as far as I am concerned. I have been a RN for 17 years and to be honest most of this is a waste of my time, if not all of it. I learned how to write research papers back in high school and then again for my ADN. It is just jumping through hoops. Please, please I respect everyone who furthers their education, you just need to know what your goals are before you spend the thousands of dollars and all the time. If all you want to do is bedside, then all you need is your ADN. I have worked  in management with my ADN, as well. You, whoever you are,  should have done a little investigating before spending all the big bucks and you wouldn't be so bitter.

Where I went to school the ADN nurses had a much highr pass rate on the Neclex, so I ask you who would you want to be your nurse? A nurse who spent her/his time writting papers or one that spent there time in Clinicals, and then had 2 years experience on the new BSN nurse. I have also seen LPN's put any RN to shame, rare but I have seen this.

Bottom line my sister was in between jobs and has a BA in accounting and went to work at Crackle Barrell for a couple of months. She was doing the same work as the others, but obviously much more educated then many, should she get paid more for performing the same duties?????? Think about it. The reason that the nursing programs go from diploma to adn to bsn to msn to ph. d is that your goals should match your education. BSN management or pursue a higher degree etc... Then you will get more money...Until then don't blame your well qualified smart ADN nurses who probably save your ass over and over again, because you spent to much money.

Sorry just my opinion...

Do any of you know what the word prerequisites mean? In Kansas you go to school for at least two years to get your: psychology, developmental psych, Comp I & II, chemistry, anatomy, physiology, biology, microbiology etc.  before your nursing classes for your ADN start & extremely competitive to get into.  BSNs take several credit hours of western civilization, humanities, and other courses, do they make you a better nurse? What courses do the BSN programs offer that increase your nursing critical thinking, compassion, skills, the list goes on. I've read where RNs want to get rid of CNAs & LPNs, good luck with that. BSNs talk about all their education, are they really going to clean up patients/ residents that are bowel incontinent? If you think you are over worked now, you better learn to love your CNAs & LPNs. Peace & Love from the sunflower state.

I know plenty of BSNs that have, and do still, clean up everything. A BSN with no experience is not going to land any admin job.

gggirl says ...

I think you have to take a look at each program individually, I attended an associate degree program that went to school all year round for three years with only 2 weeks off at christmas and one 2 weeks off between the summer and fall semester. We were either in clinicals or classroom 8 hours a day and need a minimum of 1700 clinical hours to graduate, Our program was integrated with the BSN and we took the same anatomy, physiology, ethics, stats, psyche  courses etc. The BSN program had extra courses in general university classes like philosophy, politics and statistics. For myself I don't think either program was better than the other and I did go back and complete dgree studies but more for self improvement and learning, not because I felt I needed to do it to become a better nurse, Ther are good nurses who graduate from both levels , It is just what you do with what you learn, education is atool but if you don't use it , it is not effective.

 

Bravo, great post; I agree with much of your subject angles.  I have dealed with the nursing education dept. of schools in several states and it seems that for the most part a BSN is like an enginering degree time wise (i.e. 5 years) and the ADN or 2 year nursing degree is more like a 3 year effort.  The subject matter varries a little from state to state; an example of this would be Ohio wanting more algebra and english, but Michigan requiring higher chemistry (BioChem) and more biology.  So with what they are saying in some earlier post maybe the Michigan R.N. should get paid more because they may understand human science better than the Ohio R.N. who can write structured paragraphs better and perform on a higher math level that has nothing to do with IV and drug calculations.   It is not this way though as the Michigan R.N., the Ohio R.N., the ADN-RN, and the BSN-RN all are expected to pass the same NCLEX as the other.  The most all these 'New Grad.' nurses will be expected to perform at similar levels in the entry levels of their job path, but later the BSN will have a few other paths that the ADN may not be able to embrace until he or she furthers to a BSN level.  Both of the R.N.s are ready for the core of nursing which is patient care right outside of their respective schools.  Should a C.N.P. and/or a Nurse Midwife make the same as a C.N.A., is that not fair.  It is all fair because the free market sets the equilibrium wage level by market demand, availability, and other free market forces unless their is a union somewhere or the government define otherwise with policy restrictions.  It is what it is and the people that wave the 'its not fair flag' through life will live with unhealthy frustration.  The BSN has more advantages, yet those advantage come latter most of the time and the way to a Masters is much shorter for those that get it at the start.

 

High hopes & God speed - Tim, R.N.

Here is a comment from an  older diploma nurse who became a BSN is getting a MSN and has worked with and supervised both LPNs, ADNs and BSNs.

With regard to the Diploma training, it was established by hospitals years ago in order to staff the units. It was expected that upon graduation the nurse would work at the hospital she graduated from. I say she because at the time there were no male nurses or students in nursing. So it is an understatement to say that nursing is a changing profession.  There was a huge emphasis on clinical bedside nursing, teamwork.  I attended daily nursing classes taught by the nursing faculty, worked on the hospital units,  and attended a local college several days a week  to take courses in Anatomy and Physiology, Psychology, Chemistry, Humanities, English, Social science, and Pharmacology, and returned in the evenings to take more nursing classes and clinical labs at the nursing school. In addition, all nursing students were under a cerfew and stayed in nursing living quarters. (Neither was a student permitted to be married or have another job)  In the end the graduate was fully qualified to begin her nursing career immediately upon finishing her training. Following two days of testing at a designated area probably many miles from her home and paid for at her own expense she waited for weeks to find out whether she passed her boards.

There have been allot of changes in nursiing since then. These  changes  are driven by in large by the changes in the health care delivery system which include, DRGs, insurance, Medicaid, Medicare, staffing needs associated with patient population, govenment regulations regarding compliance and reimbursement, public relations, regulations regarding the Nurse Practice Act, Labor regulations, hospital policies, patient census and acuity, and customer relations, consumer satisfaction,Public Relations, changes in medical treatment and practices that require varried levels of training, skill and expertice, and budget constraints.As the previoius writer suggests, there is a great deal of patient care requried by a great number of healrh care workers in order to accomplish successful and efficient health servce delivery to customers in numerous health care settings both in and out of hospitals. 

The continuing dispute concerning the value-role  of LPNs and RNs ADNs BSNs and advance practice nurses is regrettable reflecting a identity crisis of sorts wiithin the the nursing field in general.  If  for discussion sake we could remove the emotional factor and addess the very practical matter that new areas of nursing roles have grown out of health care needs we would more clearly see that we are really talking about areas of expertise rather than personal value or worth.Semantics also plays a role in blurring the conversation as the word nurse is also a verb (describing and action)  and a noun (describing a person).  Everyone in nursing does (the verb) nursing, everyone who does nursing is a nurse (noun). But not everyone in nursing is skilled or educated  or experienced equally. Just about every nurse can make a bed, or pass a med, or give a bath, however not every nurse can interpret a cardiogram and administer a critical cardiac medication to a patient with profound and life threatening bradycardia.  What is the difference here? The difference is that the nurse capapable of addressing the patient with life threatening bradycardia by applying specific protocols has been first licensed legally to perform such repsonsibilities by the Nurse Practice Act of their specific state as a Registered Nurse, has been taught skill sets that assure competence in specific procedures, has a knowledge base that includes anatomy and physiology and pharmacology with relation to the task at hand.  In addition, the nurse has also probalby  been through an intense period of apprenticeship related to cardiology and patient(nursing ) care. 

In a similar comparision, physicans attend four years of medical school and are conferred a degree to practice medicine.  They must continue on in residency  that may last one to 10 years depending which specialty they desire to practice. They may call themselves surgeons, or endocrinologists, or othopedics but we do not hear a continuing   public discorse on who is a real doctor. No, because they are all real doctors. They respect one another within their scope of practice. In addition to the degree conferred upon them. Their public and personal is mature.  It is distressing to hear members of the nursing profession squabbling about worth and value when that is not the issue at all. We are all nurses under an umbrella of varried skills, experiences and education. Let us respect one another for our skills, knowledge and conferred degrees. If one desires more responsibility or desires more compensation then pursue more qualifications.  Let us set a tone of respect and comraderie.

It is funny I got my LPN and was told get your RN, ADN because they are doing away with LPNS or you won't receive as much pay, as much respect, etcetera.

Now I am working on my RN, ADN and everyone seems to be saying that I have to get my BSN as they are doing away with ADNs.

We are necessary, each of us. How about some respect and unity--how can we expect to be treated as a profession if we do not act as professionals.

Wow, what a can of worms to open. I personally think that comparing a BSN/ADN  is like comparing different routes to a destination, you can take the long way around,  take a lot longer, and use more gas just to end up at the same place as someone who took the shorter route. A Registered Nurse is a registered nurse, period.  You take the same boards for crying out loud! Do you think a patient who is in trouble and needs you to intervene really cares what degree you have? No, and for that patient's sake you better know  what to do. The history of civilization or that that research paper you pulled your hair out to write really is not going to matter at that point. Dont throw degrees and credentials in  your colleagues faces. And  just because you spent more money and more time to become the same thing as an ADN does not give you the right  to have some type of superiority complex and think that makes you a better nurse. I am an ADN prepared RN and I am proud of my profession. I was also a Charge Nurse, and yes there were BSN prepared nurse that I supervised.  I now work as a case manager. I do not think that a BSN, especially a new one, deserves to be paid more than me. You get out there, pay your dues, get some experience under your belt, and then if you want to push papers, go for it and more power to you. Hard work and dedication is what impresses me.

rondodondo says ...

Here's a novel idea: as an LPN I received 1050 hours of clinical training. As an ADN I got 350 hours of clinical training and learned SO much more about really helpful stuff like: Statistics, Human Growth and Development, College Writing 1 &2, the LPN to RN bridge , and Contemporary Social Problems where we bandied about real meaty topics like world hunger, and other really helpful stuff. Why dont they have the RN's take 1050 clinical hours so that when the ADN's and BSN's actually hit the floor.................they have some idea of what patient care is all about? If ever a program was bass akwards its todays RN programs.  The ADN's and BSN' s havent got  the clinical skills that they need when they actually get to the hospital. Most of the people I went to school with for my ADN had never even placed a foley  by the time I graduated so WTF are they supposed to do when they get to a hospital setting esp. with very experienced floor nurses?  And you wonder why nurses "eat their young".  More clinical time for RN's would greatly ease the "shock" when they hit the floor.  And in answer to the post, IMO there is no difference at all between ADN and BSN skil sets.......................they both stink.

 

Sounds like you got the shaft at your ADN program.  That doesn't describe anything close to what mine was like.  Historically, our school was known for putting out nurses who were competent clinicians and could go straight to the bedside.  Lots of clinical time.  The big difference between LPN and RN is the focus on theory and disease process.  You're talking about a college degree, so of course you're going to have to take pre-reqs and electives that you might consider irrelevant.  If the BSN and ADN skill sets in your area stink, sounds like your schools kinda suck.

RNdude says ...

 

Sounds like you got the shaft at your ADN program.  That doesn't describe anything close to what mine was like.  Historically, our school was known for putting out nurses who were competent clinicians and could go straight to the bedside.  Lots of clinical time.  The big difference between LPN and RN is the focus on theory and disease process.  You're talking about a college degree, so of course you're going to have to take pre-reqs and electives that you might consider irrelevant.  If the BSN and ADN skill sets in your area stink, sounds like your schools kinda suck.

You got it R.N. Dude the programs vary and the scope is different.  Bravo, good post, and thank you.

Cheers - Tim, R.N.

rondodondo says ...

I think that at least some of it comes from the fact that the instructors had not worked in a hosp or LTC facility for years. I know that Theala works in the E.D. so she is up to speed with the latest technology but when you havent worked the floor or someplace in the hosp. for more than 10 years how in the world can you expect to be instructing people on the newest trends when you dont know  how to do it yourself?  And yea IMO my school sucked and to top it off it cost 32K....................................... Oh yea one of our instructors mangled every medical term that was longer than 1 sylable. Inexcuseable in my book.

Thanks for the kudos, Tim

rondo, I totally agree with you on instructors that no longer practice at the bedside.  I'm the educator for our ED and there's no way I can maintain credibility with my staff or myself if I don't work in the department.  I'm not an instructor that can teach what I don't do.  Some can get away with it...not me.