I totally agree, if the homosexuals want a civil union, I am all for it. Why is this not good enough?

As far as child molestors, there is tons of data out there supporting that they "Can't help it".This is to the arguement that homosexuals Can't Help it... I really do not know if they can or not, really do not care.

Homosexuals most certainly hid their orientation, our country has just became more tolerant, now that leads us to pandoras box.... Today its this, what will be next???

Why do we obey laws??? Because we have them, otherwise we would be a free for all world, don't ya think?

Saying, that I can't help it is just not proof to me of anything.... That is my point...

mg1021 says ...

I am a Christian, but here's some questions I ask myself about the issue....

If there is so much hatred, disgust, and stigma attached to being homosexual.....why would one choose that lifestyle?  To me, this is different than choosing to be a child molester.  One who chooses to do that does it in secret to conceal the inappropriateness of their actions.  Many gays and lesbians do remian in the closet but I believe it's more about preventing a stigma rather than avoiding imprisonment which would be the result for a known child molester not someone who is homosexual.

I do think there should be seperate unions.  Civil union and Religious unions.  Not because I think homosexuals are any different, but because marriage has traditionally been a religious event.  Many religions beieve that homosexuality is wrong so having two forms of unions may satisfy more people.  The issues and arguments always seem to arise when one views marriage as religious.

My concern for prop 8 is this.......many many years ago it was not the norm for two people of different ethnicity or race to be married.  Today, that is perfectly legal and widely accepted.  With props like this on the ballot, don't we make it possible to reverse freedoms that we have acquired (like marrying someone of another race)? If there were a prop banning interracial marriage added to the ballot and it voted for.....my husband and I would suddenly be commiting a crime.   THAT is not cool!!!!!!  We have an excellent marriage....one better than anyone we have witnessed in our family.  (in many ways I see our marriage as a paralell to some homosexual unions.....we're not harming anyone by being together but there is/was a stigma)  Some religious groups have traditionally used the bible to say that individuals of differing backgrounds should not be married, because they would be "unequally yolked".  But, the fact of the matter is that we are ALL humans and that stance / platform to prohibit interracial relationships was fearmongering, offbase BS.  Ultimately, this is how I feel.....I do not push my faith on anyone.....they have a choice and freedom to believe what they willIf someone is happy to be married to someone of the same sex then they should be able to pursue happiness, because they are not harming anyone by doing this (it is much different than molestation - a child is hurt)I am not the decision maker on right and wrong.....I do not make the rules and I do not decide what is sin and notOnly God will judge us......and I will focus on doing what is right within the realm of what I deem to be moral and for the goodof others.

1.  Gay people don't usually hide because homosexuality is not illegal, AND because the media has pushed the idea of gayness being socially acceptable, so more and more people drink that kool-aid.  It's also not PC to say anything negative about homosexuality.

2.  There is nothing in the Bible that states or indicates that a couple must be married by a Christian or religious leader, so marriage is actually a civil union.

3.  Those Christians that believe interracial marriages make someone "unequally yoked" need to go back and study their Bible.  Being unequally yoked is referring to Christian/non-Christian union and nothing else.

4.  The Bible clearly states that homosexuality is an "abomination", therefore a sin; however, like all sins (we all commit them), God does not consider one more horrendous or better than another.  He also states that if you've gone against one of God's commandments or laws, you've gone against them all. Being contentious and gossipy is just as wrong as being gay, which is just as wrong as cheating and stealing, etc.  Society determines what actions are legal or illegal or are against the societies norms and standards.  Traditionally, murdering and stealing have never been condoned by a moral society.  It use to be that having sex outside of marriage, or adultery, was wrong, but just like homosexuality, it is being accepted more and more.  I'm always amazed at the people who ask what is wrong with having sex without a permanent committment, or those who say since we are living much longer than previous generations, then it's okay to divorce and re-marry since who could expect a person to live that many years with the same person.  So, what is moral to one person or group is considered immoral to another, and vice versa.

5.  I agree with a live and let live model until that person or persons' behavior takes away from my personal freedoms or is harmful to the community at large.

On a religious level, I'm not bothered by it at all. But, I also understand that putting this law on the books is going to open Pandora's box.  THIS WILL HAPPEN, ...polygamy, and what about the teenager that is 15 and in love with an older same sex partner, doesn't he deserve equal rights......What about 3 men that want to marry each other, (or 3 women)...or a group of men and women that wants to marry.  There are other ways of giving homosexuals rights in a relationship, without opening the laws to a whole host of challenges.  NAMBLA will challenge this once the dust is settled, and a few other crazies with lawyers, will come up with a new take on their right to equal rights.

I am not perfect by any means....However the 10 commandments is still the moral compass I try to live by....

The Bible is still the book I turn to for guidance ...

And Prayer still changes things....

I do not beleive in homosexuality as a alternative lifestyle ....It has been said  that homosexuality is a disease..so do some gene research and let them put thier money where thier mouths are and find a cure....

Maybe all they need is some hormone therapy to fix it...

JUDLEERN says ...

dmazment says ...

This is where I differ, I do not now nor will I ever believe homosexuality is a sin. 

I am just curious... You want to be open minded I am sure, so how do you know what you will believe in say 5-10 years??? Just curious, truely not argueing, since we must all say that now, LOL...

Plus I want to let you, and all others know that I am far from Holier than thou. I sin,on a regular basis, I gossip, judge others(on here as a matter of fact), cuss, and the list goes on, I just really try to improve according to my religious beliefs, that is all. I wish I could say I was purer than I am, but that would be a lie....

 First of all, I've been an RN for over 30 years so the idea I may think about homosexuality differently in 5-10 years is not likely.  Secondly this discussion was for those of us who were upset prop8 was passed and not a religious forum.  It has turned into a religious debate, which I have decided to no longer participate in.

jaacon says ...

Nursejenny1310 says ...

To whom it may apply...............

You say you are a firm believer in the word of God and what it states should be followed right? What about working on Sunday? If I went to work and said nope sorry can't work on sunday I would be fired! There are so many things in the bible that don't get followed to the letter anymore, it just can't. So then you say you are going to heaven, not because of good works but because of the saviour? I agree, this is correct, but will God not save a gay/lesbian if they choose to believe? I know several who go to church and pray everyday and fully believe they are a child of God. And aren't they? Yes! We cannot get to heaven by any earthly doings. We can do it by believing Christ died for our sins and that He loves us! Gay, straight, murderer, thief you name it. So your argument doesn't work.

Actually, following the Sabbath was for Jews and discussed in the Old Testament.  The Church Age (post Jesus' death and resurrection) believer should be worshipping daily and their pastor-teacher should be teaching at least 5-6 days each week if you want to get technical.  Traditionally, most Christians meet on Sundays, Protestants also have Wednesday, Jews take Saturday.    Being gay is a sin, but not one that will keep a person out of heaven.  ALL personal sins, believer and unbeliever, have been forgiven.  That was what the cross was all about.  What keeps a person out of heaven is their lack of belief in Jesus' saving work on the cross.  "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."  It doesn't say, "Believe and sin no more," "Believe and be baptized,"  "Believe and say 3 hail Marys," or "Believe and go to church every week."  So, any argument I've given thus far "works", but maybe you were speaking to someone else?

 

Ok so I wasn't speaking to you directly. And you did just say exactly what I said in different words. I know all that. You did state it better than I did though so good job.

I am not trying to pick fights with any one I was trying to say exactly what the person above me said and that all sins are counted and forgiven the same. I don't care if you are gay. It does not hurt me or my family or threaten my beliefs. I do care about child molesters. But the man/boy thing Kittyrn is speaking of. Well I might think differntly if it was my son, but if it is consentual let them. We do not have the right to judge others for the lifestyles they choose. Even though we ALL do it everyday. Which is also a sin. But the bottom line is, for those that are believers in the higher power. We have been redeemed. God loves us all. If you don't believe in God I am not sure what to say because I don't know how everyone feels about the after life thing. That was not meant to be a bash on any one so please don't take it to be.

Also, there was a time in the US that african americans were not allowed to marry one another citing that one piece of property couldn't marry another.  After that, interracial marriages were banned because "purity" was desirable.  I cannot imagine a time when i would not be allowed to walk down the street holding hands with my boyfriend.  This should be no different in my eyes.

frumpster65 says ...

BAck in the day....geez kcs18....try to stay current...alot of things were different .."back in the day"....we arent talking about interacial marriages for petes sake .

BTW..the man you mentioned??..Where was his next of kin??...

HIs homo lover might not have been allowed to see him but im sure he would have been able to give the nurses pertinent information.

This happens to live in boyfriend /girlfriend relationships as well...they arent allowed back to see someone in critical care unless the family says so.

His next of kin was his life partner, this is how they feel but in most states do not have the right to be treated as such.  Many healthcare workers will not discuss anything with someone not a "family member or legal spouse" so that's another avenue closed for them.

You comment about back in the day, and that wasn't very long ago...........try the 60's.  This is a civil rights issue, it is not a religious issue.

frumpster65 says ...

BAck in the day....geez kcs18....try to stay current...alot of things were different .."back in the day"....we arent talking about interacial marriages for petes sake .

BTW..the man you mentioned??..Where was his next of kin??...

HIs homo lover might not have been allowed to see him but im sure he would have been able to give the nurses pertinent information.

This happens to live in boyfriend /girlfriend relationships as well...they arent allowed back to see someone in critical care unless the family says so.

frumpster... I think what she was trying to point out was that the civil rights issue is the same thing with gays. Oh and ps can you please try to be a little more politically correct when speaking about people?

dmazment says ...

I stand for many things, and most of all I stand for equality here in the USA.  Yet over and over again, right wing religious conservatives continually pick and choose who should have rights and who should not.  I don't know of a single gay/lesbian person who chooses to be physically attracted to the same sex.  They had no choice in the matter.  There is scientific proof of this, although there are naysayers who say it isn't proof.  Why not go out and ask any gay or lesbian you know if they chose their sexual orientation?  I also think most of you, if your child, sister, brother, cousin would be gay you'd have a very different outlook.

The point is God tests people....yes mayb some people are born gay, but they are supposed to resist the temptation to sin, if no1 believes this....read The Bible, The Quran, or The Torah...

There is a reason, there should be a separation between church and state, however apparently no one believes that here but a few of us.  This is not a religious issue, it is a civil rights issue.  Also this topic was opened to discuss Prop 8 not everyone's religious beliefs

dmazment says ...

There is a reason, there should be a separation between church and state, however apparently no one believes that here but a few of us.  This is not a religious issue, it is a civil rights issue.  Also this topic was opened to discuss Prop 8 not everyone's religious beliefs

The fact that it comes before a vote of the people makes it a civil rights issue; however, the fact that many, many voters base their opinions from their religious beliefs makes it a religious issue, also.  It's very difficult for people to set aside their personal beliefs when they go to vote.  For those that didn't want this to turn into a religious discussion, I have to say that Prop 8 would not be at issue if it weren't for religious beliefs.  The comments about God and the Bible, Queran, etc. are not made as an intent to hijack the thread.  It IS possible to discuss religious issues without everyone feeling disenfranchised, and for this topic, the belief in God and His teachings are quite significant for the debate, IMHO.

do you think if gays were allowed the same rights under a "domestic partnership" instead of "marriage"  then the prop wouldn't have passed? then its a civil issue, not religious...

kcs18 says ...

do you think if gays were allowed the same rights under a "domestic partnership" instead of "marriage"  then the prop wouldn't have passed? then its a civil issue, not religious...

Prop 8 passed because the Mormon church got it passed by devoting huge sums of money and getting it on the ballot in the first place.  It was a civil issue, until the Mormon church stepped in.

Why are people in this country so uptight?  Look I love this country it's my home but honestly relax.  So what if a gay person wants to get married?  If you don't like it then don't go to the wedding just like if you don't like a program on tv you change the channel. I don't base my choices on religious beliefs I base them on whether or not it harms people.  Just because we've all thought one way for generations doesn't mean it's the right way to think.  How many years did this country have slaves and believe this was the right thing to do? Lets evolve why can't we all have the same rules? 

Lets for one second think about all of the marriages that have made a mockary of the union.  Britney Spears being married for what 12 hours?  Who wants to marry a millionaire, who wants to marry a midget, the bachelor, drive thru chapels that marry people completely intoxicated in vegas.....etc.  No one has an issue with this because it's man and woman but a same sex couple that loves eachother is an issue?  C'mon!