After losing Elijah,I am shocked.  do you think  if God doesn't want people to suffer, we should hav e let my nephew die after his first heart surgery. Of if a baby has cancer, should we suffocate or drown them, because God does not want people to suffer.

Where does that end.  My mom is elderly and has lots of leg pains, guess I should put her out of her misery, because God will be happy.

Your response has hit me at the wrong time. 

I am not happy that Tiller was killed the way he was, I wish he could have been in prison but what he did to viable babies.

I know what he did to babies that were born alive.

I am just wondering why would you get pregnant in the first place with all that going on, age, being on lipitor etc.

Kittyrn says ...

When, I was pregnant with my 5th child, I was almost 40.   On top of that I took Lipitor for high Cholesterol.  Lipitor is a cat X drug...known to cause  serious birth defects.  I had an amniocentesis.  I do not believe it is God's will to bring a child into this World with a serious birth defect.  I told my MD that if the results came back with serious birth defects, I felt I could not go on with the pregnancy.  My husband was in absolute agreement.  I was told by my OB that if the results came back bad, I would have to travel to another state to have an abortion.

By some miracle all my results were OK, and our son  was born healthy.   I do not believe  it 's right to intentionally bring a child into this world, just to have a life of suffering and pain.  We have reached the point in medicine, where we can artificially extend lives, that were never meant to live.  We poke them, we test them, we put them on ventilators, we often prolong suffering.

Very well said, Kitty and that is a touching story about the decisions that some women (and men) face. It's a blessing how things worked out.

I have said it before and I'll say it now. I am prolife, but don't prescibe to mmullican's judgemental view and apparent condoning of the murder of Dr. Diller. In my view, mmullican is of no better moral ground that the souls she opposes and shame on you for your judgemental comment about Dr. Diller's church!

Fanatics and the moral elite are a major hindrance to the pro-life cause.

JUDLEERN says ...

nurseaisha says ...

JUDLEERN says ...

MAMADAWN says ...

What about the baby's RIGHT to live.  The baby didn't CHOOSE to be conceived???  The mother did choose to have sex though????

wHAT ABOUT INCEST??? DID THAT CHILD OR YOUNG WOMEN choose TO HAVE SEX???

This is a very common pro "choice" argument.  No, a survivor of incest never chooses to be a survivor (I use the word survivor because I am a survivor of incest and I refuse to be called a victim)   Less than 1% off all abortions performed in our country each year are for rape or incest.  Lets just say for the sake of argument, however that it is 1% per year.  There are 1.37 million abortions performed a year in the US.  1% of those, or 13,700 are performed for cases of rape or incest, and that number is skewed because statistically it is LESS THAN 1%, and also because this is a reason given for abortion that may not actually be accurate, meaning it is often used as an excuse.  That being said, even in cases of rape and incest, the child is still an innocent product.  Granted, a product of a very violent and hateful act, but why should this child have to lose it's life for an act it did not commit?  The question then arises, why should a woman have to carry said child to term?  In a perfect world, she wouldn't because these things would never happen, but ours is not a perfect world.  No human has been granted the power to make decisions about who lives or dies without their being severe consequnces, abortion is no different. It is true what emtpixie stated, there is a higher power that makes those decisions and who will judg those who have been making them on His behalf. 

I really don't want to get into a Bible discussion, but Jesus died on the cross for our sins. If you believe that Jesus died on the cross for YOUR, ( that means all of us) sins, and you confess them to the Lord and ask for forgiveness, then you are forgiven. In God's eyes no sin is any worse than any other and all are forgivable, except for Blasphemy..(God does not reject repentent sinners, Luke 15:11-24.So you being so judgemental is also a sin and you will be held accountable as well. So I support you in reading your Bible, and not spread inaccurate information...God is a loving God, and loves All His children. This idea that God is out to get you...is inacurate...What was the purpose of Jesus I ask you??? We will all be accountable for our life you are correct, but where does it say you can't be forgiven and there will be "severe consequences for abortion, ie...murder". Have you heard the quote, "though shall not  judge"? 1john9 " If anyone says, I am living in the light" but hates a Christian brother or sister is living and walking in darkness. Such a person is lost, having been blinded by the darkness. I am writing to you, my dear children because your sins have been forgiven because of Jesus". I could go on and on, but pleases don't make God sound evil, that is Satan's job....

I guess I'm missing the part where I stated God was not a loving God.....loves all His children....I do however believe the bible says that God is a vengeful God despite his loving and nurturing nature.  I did not make any statement that referred to God as being evil.  What IS evil, are the acts committed by man, the acts which I stated they will have to answer for and be judged for...by GOD. I also do not recall stating that I hated any one individual because of their decisions.   I will not deny that I am incredibly passionate about this topic, and that it often comes across as being judgemental...so be it, that's a  cross I must bear, and I do so with a smile.    Satan has many jobs, including the perpetuation of the murder of the unborn.

In this chapter, he is referring to his desire to have never been born. It was a bout of depression and self-pity.

In this specific verse, he is referring to a stillborn baby. One that had died in utero, and the parents buried it and never spoke of it. Never was it meant to refer to someone killing an unborn child.

Oh, now I understand your question...

In this passage Job is asking "Why"

Why would I not be

Why would I not exist

Why had I not been

Why might I never have come into existence...

It doesnt mean to impose that an unborn is not alive, he is simply asking why he could not have died before or during birth.

Here are the preceding passages to help understand his meaning:

3:11 “Why did I not  die  at birth,

and why did I not expire

as  I came out of the womb?

3:12 Why did the knees welcome me,

and why were there  two breasts

that I might nurse at them?

3:16 Or why   was  I not buried

like a stillborn infant,

like infants  who have never seen the light?

nurseaisha says ...

JUDLEERN says ...

nurseaisha says ...

JUDLEERN says ...

MAMADAWN says ...

What about the baby's RIGHT to live.  The baby didn't CHOOSE to be conceived???  The mother did choose to have sex though????

wHAT ABOUT INCEST??? DID THAT CHILD OR YOUNG WOMEN choose TO HAVE SEX???

This is a very common pro "choice" argument.  No, a survivor of incest never chooses to be a survivor (I use the word survivor because I am a survivor of incest and I refuse to be called a victim)   Less than 1% off all abortions performed in our country each year are for rape or incest.  Lets just say for the sake of argument, however that it is 1% per year.  There are 1.37 million abortions performed a year in the US.  1% of those, or 13,700 are performed for cases of rape or incest, and that number is skewed because statistically it is LESS THAN 1%, and also because this is a reason given for abortion that may not actually be accurate, meaning it is often used as an excuse.  That being said, even in cases of rape and incest, the child is still an innocent product.  Granted, a product of a very violent and hateful act, but why should this child have to lose it's life for an act it did not commit?  The question then arises, why should a woman have to carry said child to term?  In a perfect world, she wouldn't because these things would never happen, but ours is not a perfect world.  No human has been granted the power to make decisions about who lives or dies without their being severe consequnces, abortion is no different. It is true what emtpixie stated, there is a higher power that makes those decisions and who will judg those who have been making them on His behalf. 

I really don't want to get into a Bible discussion, but Jesus died on the cross for our sins. If you believe that Jesus died on the cross for YOUR, ( that means all of us) sins, and you confess them to the Lord and ask for forgiveness, then you are forgiven. In God's eyes no sin is any worse than any other and all are forgivable, except for Blasphemy..(God does not reject repentent sinners, Luke 15:11-24.So you being so judgemental is also a sin and you will be held accountable as well. So I support you in reading your Bible, and not spread inaccurate information...God is a loving God, and loves All His children. This idea that God is out to get you...is inacurate...What was the purpose of Jesus I ask you??? We will all be accountable for our life you are correct, but where does it say you can't be forgiven and there will be "severe consequences for abortion, ie...murder". Have you heard the quote, "though shall not  judge"? 1john9 " If anyone says, I am living in the light" but hates a Christian brother or sister is living and walking in darkness. Such a person is lost, having been blinded by the darkness. I am writing to you, my dear children because your sins have been forgiven because of Jesus". I could go on and on, but pleases don't make God sound evil, that is Satan's job....

I guess I'm missing the part where I stated God was not a loving God.....loves all His children....I do however believe the bible says that God is a vengeful God despite his loving and nurturing nature.  I did not make any statement that referred to God as being evil.  What IS evil, are the acts committed by man, the acts which I stated they will have to answer for and be judged for...by GOD. I also do not recall stating that I hated any one individual because of their decisions.   I will not deny that I am incredibly passionate about this topic, and that it often comes across as being judgemental...so be it, that's a  cross I must bear, and I do so with a smile.    Satan has many jobs, including the perpetuation of the murder of the unborn.

GOD IS NOT VENGEFUL....WHERE DID YOU GET THAT??? HE WILL TEST US, BY AGAIN HE IS NOT OUT TO GET US, AND IS NOT VENGEFUL. VENGOUS IS FOR HUMANS, GOD IS ABOVE THAT... I JUST SUPPORT YOU IN READING YOUR BIBLE AND UNDERSTANDING THE NATURE OF GOD, BEFORE YOU SPEW OUT STUFF THAT IS FALSE....YOU HAVE A RIGHT TO SPEW OUT YOUR JUDGEMENTAL OPINION, BUT YOU WILL BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE OR THIS, JUST LIKE THE PERSON WHO HAS AN ABORTION. GOD IS LOVE, PEACE, PATIENCE, KINDNESS, ALL KNOWING ETC...WE ARE NOT BY HUMAN NATURE...

nurseaisha says ...

I guess this depends on which version of the bible that you read. There are a plethora of available versions from all over the world....these all come from the King James Version

Nahum 1:2 (King James Version)

 

 2God is jealous, and the LORD revengeth; the LORD revengeth, and is furious; the LORD will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemies.

Deuteronomy 32:16 (King James Version)

 

 16They provoked him to jealousy with strange gods, with abominations provoked they him to anger.

 

Deuteronomy 6:15 (King James Version)

 

 15(For the LORD thy God is a jealous God among you) lest the anger of the LORD thy God be kindled against thee, and destroy thee from off the face of the earth.

Deuteronomy 4:24 (King James Version)

 

 24For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.

 

This thread was not created in order to toss religious banter back and forth.  I simply made a statement earlier concerning having to answer to ones saviour, whoever that saviour may be and for whatever reason.  This does not exclude anyone, including myself.  I, do not, however wish to continue this discussion...if you wish to talk religion, create a new thread.

I think I started out saying, "I don't want to talk Bible talk, but your comment was that people who have abortion are going to be "severely punished"...This is just NOT necessarily true, so don't play god, because YOU are not!!! You just can't spew wrong information unless you want to be called on it. I will post whatever I want, you WILL NOT dictate to me, thank you very much....I will however get off the religious topic, even though you brought it into this forum above, not me....(I could,however, counter you below because you have to read the entire book of the Bible story you have quoted to get to the accurate meaning).

Anyhow enough of that....To the person who asked if a pro-choice person would participate in late term abortion, NO NO and NO...I could not, nor would I. I really do not agree with late term abortion, or any abortion really, except I could totally understand why some people make that decision...I am a very compassionate person, my God given gift, and don't assume to walk in anyone else's shoes...I really do not know what I may do if facing the same situation some of these women find themselves in, and this applies to many things in life, not just abortion...It is easy to judge...I personally would not put myself in a medical situation to have to participate in this process.

"It is true what emtpixie stated, there is a higher power that makes those decisions and who will judg those who have been making them on His behalf."

And just to clarify, the above quote is again mine....I was reiterating what another poster had already stated, but nowhere did I ever mention anyone besides God being God.

Catty, you are right, God has a plan for everyone and everything that happens is for some reason.  I commend you for having the courage to voice your opinion. Many will follow this comment, calling you judgemental and saying their "how dare you's", but I think you have strong morals and have a good strong voice to go with it!

MMM, what part of Lipitor was NOT listed as a Category X drug when I first became pregnant, did you not read in my post...  Please go back and read my post.

I want to know where in the world do they do a partial hysterectomy as a method of birth control??? 

You may not like it, but God is my judge, and NOT YOU!!  I can guarantee you, that a lot of the christians in church, believe that abortion is acceptable in incidences of rape, or serious birth defect.  You may not like it, but that is a fact.  No One, could force me to have a child, that I knew was going to suffer.  I wouldn't do it.  If it meant taking a plane to France........

which is exactly how Elijah was. No indication on his ultrasounds that he had a small ventricle.

he started out day one with heart surgery.

Yes he suffered, I guess, but he didn't know any different.

We all hoped against hope that he would get a heart, but this little guy in his short 2 years inspired so many people.

And in nursing links yesterday, a lady was advised to have an abortion due to a large tumor on the face.  She refused, and when they delivered the baby the tumor was removed and a beautiful perfectly formed face....you must read that story.  I don't want anyone who had an

abortion to feel like they are being persecuted. i just think more people just must be informed and not just pretend this is just a bag of blood that is being evacuted, well that is a nice way to put it . right?

I'm sorry...."would be child"?  I think this is the problem when we are discussing the topic of abortion, when does "IT" become a child?  When I was carrying my children, I never though of them as anything other than just that...my CHILDREN, because that is what they were then and what they will continue to be.  Is it only a child when the child is WANTED by the biological parents? I find it very hypocritical for an individual to call themselves a christian and yet still condone the taking of a life in utero.  I wonder, should we feel the same way for an individual who comes down with a fatal disease AFTER birth, or someone who is in a horrible car accident and left disfigured and needing many years of surgery and medical intervention?  Should we put them out of their misery, or would the law frown on such a thing?  Dr. Kovorkian went to jail for trying to allow people to die with some sort of dignity.  He was called a murderer, "Dr. Death", etc....yet he did not by his own hand ever take a life, he merely assisted those who were suffering and able to make an informed decision about their own fate.  Yet, our laws allow so called "Dr.'s" to murder millions of unborn children every year and no one bats an eyelash...no one mourns these beautiful angels, they are thrown out with the rest of our garbage, the rest of the junk we don't want.  Their choices in life and in death are stripped away under the cloak of choice and rights.  I can't imagine the pain and torment of being aborted, can any of you?  Can any of you who think you are doing God's work by preventing the suffering of a child who may or may not be born with birth defects even possibly fathom the absolute torture of being aborted by the very person whom God has entrusted to nurture you? 

catty I'll pray for you.

All of you keep saying adoption, but the facts are babies are having babies and keeping them, not giving them up for adoption.  Over 750,000 young girls are pregnant every year to the cost of over 14 billion dollars to tax payers annually.  These children are not being adopted out, but kept by children who in many cases are not emotionally capable of caring properly for them.  I AM NOT SAYING ALL OF THEM,BUT MANY ARE NOT CAPABLE.  So these children who are kept and neglected, unloved, uncared for with failure to thrive, abused and often are killed by this neglect are you going to suggest then, that the government step in and make a law, all babies born to a young girl under the age of 18 must be adopted or placed in orphanages?  What is the solution to this?   Many of you are against welfare, but this is how these children survive with their babies. 

Kitty did not have an abortion, but she considered it and kept her child after she found out the baby was fine.  Unless and until you stand in her shoes or others who make choices, you can not understand how she felt, why she considered the abortion option. 

I would also like to state, 500,000 is a conservative estimate, since this census was done in 2001.  A great percentage of these children are special needs children.  I'd also like to hear some solutions.