Talk to some of the doctors that have worked in France or the UK.  I once believed in Socialized Medicine, but I was naive and didn't understand factors in this country that make it different here.  Most of those countries have no where near the litigation problem that we have in this country.  My MD friend that trained in France brought the Kock pouch to this country.  We were the first nurses in the US to take care of those pt's.  So, I had many many discussions about the differences, and it is NOT a one sized fits all solution. 

Going back to lap choley's, I used to smoke with a surgeon (yea, a surgeon who smoked).  We'd go out and sit on the bench.  He said that he was NOT going to to do lap choley's until they were deemed safe.  His concern was nicking an artery.  He was very concerned about litigation, and it was better to use the tried and true method, until laps were safe and effective. IN other words, he was going to use the best 'evidence based practice' which at that time were the open choleys. 

Jim Jones lives on. If this bill passes, we might as well drink grape koolaid or walk into the gas chamber, signing a bill, and not knowing what is in it, not caring what perks or pains are in it. Sweet heart deals, 10 billion dollars to vermont to increase health care units.

Well that 10 billions dollars could have helped people all over the US, and how many more perks that benefit just certain areas.

How did this congress get so stupid and devious?

shameful, shameful, if it was just healthcare reform the bill would be simple and implemented in a methodical, organized manner.

I heard the same about wishing ill. Go ahead and wish it on me. I have already had it happen. Twice. Between Aetna and a self-insured clinic in Washington, I have had 2 major medical catastrophes. The latest one caused me to literally have to go bankrupt. With 5 crushed vertebra in 1981 I have never been the same.

I'm a veteran so tell me to go to VA. I did. They told me ONLY after every other agency refused me help, in writing, and all appeals had failed. My problem was not service related..

So wish it on me. I'm a veteran of this BS too. My credit is already shot for another few years after the latest. My back hurts continuously. Doctors are more scared of the DEA and than concerned about my comfort and I have to keep working. Would be nice to get a little pain relief at night after 13-15 hours on my feet.

So tell me again about all those needing this reform being losers and illegals. I have a different story. I know others in my life situation that are not misfits, bums or wetbacks. You and Fox News have that part all wrong.

I understand nothing is perfect. So what has the GOP done to help work something out? Refuse. Refuse. Refuse. They leave everything up to the most liberal party, then do nothing more than point fingers. What is their solution. And what is yours? I have asked repeatedly to no avail on this site. You folks are just like the GOP. No. No. No.

So, wgat is your idea? Leave the status quo as is?

I hate earmakrs too. But guess what? Our Senator, Kay Bailey Hutchinson, has a PDF available of all the earmarks and "funding requests" she proposes and it runs 7 pages! Hutchinson, REPUBLICAN, TEXAS! It doesn't get much more conservative, eh?

So now please tell me all the pork and frills are Democrat add ons. Every single bill passed by Congress, every single one, has amendments added on. They very often have nothing to do with the subject of the bill. Every single piece of legislation. Why expect any of them to be any different?

The "government" is failing us all. But the jerks of the GOP, by sitting on their thumbs, are the bane of this Congress. Not a single productive idea. Jolly good of you to not hold it against people for bankruptices and such. Too bad there aren't more people and businesses like you.

I heard the same about wishing ill. Go ahead and wish it on me. I have already had it happen. Twice. Between Aetna and a self-insured clinic in Washington, I have had 2 major medical catastrophes. The latest one caused me to literally have to go bankrupt. With 5 crushed vertebra in 1981 I have never been the same.

Mr Brown, if you knew me you would know that I wouldn't wish ill on anyone, not even my worst enemy.  Someone, once, told horrible lies about me, and broke my trust.  It was an extended family member that I loved as if she was my sister.  I didn't talk to her for years, and I found out that her daughter had leukemia.  I immediately extended my love, friendship, gifts, knowledge, and prayers as if nothing ever happened.  Thankfully, her daughter is a happy recovered teenager.  I don't wish ill on others, I thank my grandma for that gift.

Mr Brown;  You really really need to look into SSI.  That is what it is there for.  I know many people that are or have collected disability for back pain.  In this situation you need to be your own advocate.  If you think about this, the government is the one keeping you from collecting disability.  It is their rules and regulations that must be satisfied.  They are the ones that run SSI.  That is why, I don't want them running public healthcare.  While healthcare needs reform, that is not the solution.

How? Our laws, at present, do not provide an avenue for this. And, if we did, these companies would simply relocate to the nearest contry who would accomodate them and their profits. Think Mexico or Brazil or some such place

THE FDA has some very very strict laws on the book about the productions of RX as well as the importation.  I think there are several laws that could cause the drop of drug prices.  1. They cannot charge Americans more than what they are charging overseas ....... 2.  Mandating that pts are notified by pharmacists or doctors if there is a generic equivilent.  3. If they are regulating profit margins, which is what they are already attempting to do with private insurance companies..I think they are mandating less than 10% profit on this current bill, the pharmaceutical industry could be mandated to have something likewise.  

When I go to my doctor for my mother, father, children or myself.  I always ask if I can have a generic drug prescribed for whatever condition.  I refuse to put $$$ in their pockets. 

I think the Lawyers need to stop protecting the pharmaceutical lobbiests.

Mr Brown, sorry you don't think I don't know anything and I don't need to explain what I know, but I have taken care of so many people with back problems, with failed surgeries. chronic pain  that causes suicide. I take care of victims by the way. I have also seen many many people abuse the system. You don't even know what party I am in, you assume I am republican. Well actually after years of being a democrat I changed this year for many reasons. One thing is that I have noticed that democrats have not been able to have a good debate and they start with personal attacks.  Does that make you feel better? If so go for it.

I dont care if the republicans came up with this bill, it is going to be a disaster.

But your statement about the VA not helping you until you ran through hoops, well guess what there are going to be many more hoops.

I am seeing a child that if on regular insurance, I would not have paper work like I have for her cenpatico healthwave and they pay a pittance anyway. I dread what is coming.  .

..I do know from talking to numerous people everyday--people are angry at the size of the bill and the perks, look them up and see or never mind, you will find out the hard way. This is not all black and white, that people that are against the bill are against reform. This bill stinks, plain and simple and the latest polls agree  and that is several different ones , abc ,nbc and ramussen  are included.

Why get so angry and demeaning when someone says they are against this massive waste of money

I would like to bet anyone that taxes will go up for everyone. People think if they do not make over 250,000 a year will be free of this, well that won't happen.

Incidentally, not all insurance companies or insurance agents are bad. My husband sells car, property, life and some medical.

Don't you like having car insurance? no one likes to pay premiums but they sure are happy when they do not suffer a loss from accidents.

And taxes? They are going to have to go up. Wars. 2 of them so far simultaneously. Now cruise missiles to Yemen. And then Iran soon. And then God only knows where after that.

My ideas, well I have many ideas. So have the republicans but even if you watch msnbc news you will see Rachel Maddog

and keith overman laughing that the republicans cannot join the debates nor will anyone read them . Then of course, Lieberman did not get a chance to tie things up.

First and most people would agree, tort reform. I have had to give depositions for many clients claiming monies that do not match the injury. My insurance is so high for my liability. I know what doctors pay. I have to pay for my own.  people complain on how much doctors charge, but look at all the people they employ.

And the riders, well some riders are necessary. you would not believe how many people want insurance for their cars and then they try to claim old bumper damage, or roof damage that was preexisting..There is no difference. My husband has had many people want life insurance TODAY on their wife and later find out they tried to run over their wife. Thank goodness, there are riders on that and delays.

I think that all hospitals should be charging the same for procedures, but more important, I think the health bill should be simpler and be readable with no catches. So we already pay for the unisured one way or the other, but we should not pay for anything that has nothing to do with health care reform. You read the bill and show me that it is just about health care. Rather elimate everything that isn't health care and you will find a smaller bill. well that would just be the house bill, because only parts of the senate bill has been released.

How do you think we will pay for this bill if it is passed? Will you be paying extra, if you are broke now, you will be more broke. You see many Americans have more mistrust of the administration than ever. Why would they not, look at the czars that were hired? what about the creep that is a czar of education and he has dealings with a Nambla member. There are too many rotten apples that are creating a large mistrust.

Maybe instead of believing why this bill is good, why not wonder what is making people so skeptical. That is all I have to say, have to pay my bills.

my clients that have applied for disability , that are young are on medicare. Those are the ones with spouses that work and they own their home. One in particular also gets a check each month, also.

The kids I see that have disabilities are on medicaid, ssi benefits.

I have many adults on medicaid also.

In any case, all government programs.

apparently I offended some NL members with a previous post that was declared  ...........what was the word.............cant remember but I was being a smartass and name calling for some members who tend to be jerks on this thread.   I suppose we have to do the 'agree to disagree' thing but honestly, I suck at that.   I will curb my nasty name calling and hope others will attempt to improve their behavior as well.   Its got to be an ALL OR NONE or this aint gonna work.    So, here is my white hankee for a truce............ifn ya dont want it, Fred will just use it for sumpin to chew on, k?     Peace and Merry Christmas to all.

Here's the latest on the proposed health care bill.  Mr Brown, if I were you, I would seriously think about leaving Texas.  If Medicaid is expanded, your state (and I would think California) , your state is going to be hit especially hard with taxes.  As someone that has migrated here and there across half dozen states,  myself, I can tell you that not all states are equal.  Some have better systems and taxes than others.

"At their core the bills passed by the House and pending in the Senate are similar. Each costs around $1 trillion over 10 years and is paid for by a combination of tax and fee increases and cuts in projected Medicare spending. Each sets up new insurance marketplaces called exchanges where uninsured or self-employed people and small businesses can compare prices and plans designed to meet some basic requirements. Unpopular insurance practices such as denying people coverage based on pre-existing conditions would be banned, and young adults could retain coverage longer under their parents' insurance plans — through age 25 in the Senate bill and through age 26 in the House version.

Reid cut numerous last-minute deals to get the votes he needed and powerful Democrats also inserted home-state provisions in a 383-page package of amendments Reid filed this weekend to the 2,074-page bill.

Among other items, Senate Finance Committee Chairman Max Baucus, D-Mont., included a provision allowing residents of the town of Libby, Mont., who are suffering asbestos-related illnesses from a mining operation to get Medicare benefits. Nelson won a list of benefits for Nebraska including a commitment for the federal government to pick up the full tab of an expansion of Medicaid. And Sen. Christopher Dodd, D-Conn., who faces a difficult re-election, inserted a $100 million item for construction of a university hospital that his spokesman said he hopes to claim for the University of Connecticut. "

Mr Brown, I am not paid just by government. I have clients on blue cross, aetna, cigna etc. I love it when someone has bluecross cigna, etc, easy, easy and simple paper work if any. . I also see many free, well guess what, some of those are on government programs and I am the only one in this area that will schedule a patient without asking about pay. I listen to their problems and decide how fast they need to come in. So needless to say, some of my hours end up being free to them, but I consider that tithing.

rn prog those guys can pray all day but have no fear some of those old coots sleep at their little desks until somebody kicks um under the table and they wake up to say "AYE"  for the vote......ie charly rangle what an old ass he is!!!!!!!! gimme a break enjoy the fun while you can because Pres Obama has exactly 3 years left and then its over for him and his stupid loser tax cheaters  going to israel or copenhagen or Norway or wherever the hell he wants to in large jumbo jets blasting our carbon footprints to hell.  Al Gore should go to jail along with everyone else in Congress who has stolen money from the taxpayer. they are all thieves and should be ashamed of themselves!! and anyone else who thinks they can get something for nothing.  I hope all you get registered to vote and get your acts together cuz that is the only way to get them out! they need to go . stop watching reality tv and wake up the american dream is going in the toilet people. oh and by the way the american dream is the one you WORK for and pay for and not the one you charged on your credit card!

Libby, Montana is a living nightmare. WR Grace mined the mineral to make asbestos there for generations, in fact until recent history. The vast majority of the town is suffering from a number of maladies related to asbestos including the highest number of mesothelioma cases per capita IN THE WORLD! There is not a single family living there that is not affected by this. Not one. Red Lodge is running a close second. I'm glad, no matter who the legislator writing this bill was, that these folks were included because WR Grace was found not culpable by a federal judge. How? It is well known and has been for a long time that asbestos is a known health hazard. WR Grace certainly knew this. So you will pay because the government, beginning under GWB mind you, found the true villains free of claim. Had Grace been found culpable the payments for the needed medical care for the residents of this area would have been on them.

As for perfection related to this bill. The Model T was IT. I mean it was IT, man. Ultimate perfection. Right? Had wheels and a motor. Didn't eat hay and leave the proof steamin' in the streets. All the rest of automotive changes have been for naught. Right?

If not, what did Ford have in mind? Why did he stick us with it? I mean he could have perfected it before releasing it. Right?

And margaretellen, I'm proud of you that you donate some time at the least and no doubt materials as well. I can assure you most of the folks who cannot pay presently are from families who DID help build this country. Served in our military branches. Farmed. Sawyers. Millers. Even coopers.