I am an LPN and today's job market wants mostly  RN's, on this nursing link I have seen many RN's on here say they should get rid of LPN's, do you not realize that we help you out in as many ways as possible and all you really know that we don't is paperwork and pic lines. So stop being so darn arrogant and accept all the help you can get. I guess you'll want to get rid of CNA's next.

I was an EMT-A and B that went to be an ER tech and then to nursing school in 1978. My first spouse was an LPN and her class was told that LPNs would be phased out if administrators had their way.

Right now, if there is a single job opening and you have an LPN/LVN and a RN applying, why not take the RN? It's a hirer's market right now.

I understand you being upset but use that anger to drive you to get your RN.

Research has also shown better outcomes in settings where the RN's are predominantly BSN prepared.  As a current ADN I'd love to argue this, but that's the trend and it's where the profession is headed.  I've got a ways to go before mine is complete, but I'm on the wagon.

Don't get me started on MA's . . . .

Yes, you should always get a f/u CXR after putting in an NGT to confirm placement. 

When I was an LPN working in LTC, the facility only let us have 2 new feeding tubes per month.  Well, one pt who continually kept pulling out her pulled it out again.  I worked the skilled care floor, we had a lot of NG's (this was in the 80's).  I went to another floor to get a new tube, and the RN working the floor told me to just wash off the old tube and reinsert it.  Needless to say, I was aghast.  But there were nurses doing this.

I didn't work at that facilily very long . . . too dangerous.

              I'm thinking that in a few months, any place that decides to get rid of all their LPNs and CNAs is also going to have a big turn over in their RNs.     Without LPNs and CNAs the DONs are going to find out that a lot of their RNs are not only lazy, they work poorly together.  They will suddenly have to do more hands on nursing, ( which many of them never wanted to do in the first place, and many have gotten physically out of shape for  ),  and there won't be anyone to be the  go-fur , or anyone to ask for assisstance when they start having to really move.       They just aren't used to it because they have had LPNs, like me, and CNAs to call on instead of just getting up and doing the job.

        I have been a LPN since 1971  and was recently laid off after working more than 20 years at the same place, full time,  and believe me, the RNs were not happy to lose either the LPNs or the CNAs, ( gone too, mostly ). They started having back pain, neck pain, knee pain, stress melt downs...... you name it.   And they started arguing more among shifts and complaining to the nursing office about all kinds of little stuff.

         Bottom line is that the patient is the customer and I can't see why the health care business doesn't / can't hire all the levels of care givers that they can to make the hospital as safe and good as possible.        But...... it's all about money, isn't it?  If you get to be the patient, you might wish things were run my way.               

Nursing is more critical these days, it is not like the 40's and 50's, when Drs, and RN's worked only together. Like someone said, the hospitals are not going to hire a whole entire staff of RN's that they have to pay more for. So what is that saying!!!. Let them worked the RN's they have like horses, and see if there will be a real nursing shortage, the M.Ds are not going to help. My CNA instructor got injured from a accidental fall in the hallways, it ruined her entire nursing career, she had to teach nursing, instead of doing what she loved the most, is patient care, by the way, my CNA instructor started off as a CNA, she clean code brown all day also. Team nursing is the way to go!!!

       The LPN situation really seems to vary from state to state.  Ohio is reducing it useage, yet Kentucky has many LPNs with an expanded role.  I read different articles with it going in many directions.  I've worked with some great LPNs, but good or bad they are often limited by their scope of practice even though they are often very capable beyond that sometimes.  In this environment it may be better to go an extra couple of semesters for the RN.  I know that when I lived in Northern California the LPNs at the prisons were making about 27 cents less an hour than the RNs for a turn around story (so why become an R.N. there); but that was because of the unions.  Good Luck anyways.

High hopes & God speed - Tim, R.N.

cuttie says ...

Theala, you are a good person. Im not saying this because I am a LVN, I am saying this, because I was abused as a CNA, when I worked in LTC, that's why I resigned. I once, received a write up, that  I didn't sign, because the RN supervisor didn't monitor a IV she started on a patient. The patient IV got infitrated, and the sitter at the time, tried to get me in trouble, because I didn't tell the nurse that the patient IV was infitrated.  The nurses responsibity is to monitored for infiltration, not the CNA. The other time, I was once forced to feed a patient with a syringe, because the patient couldn't eat with a spoon, I was a new CNA then. So I know, when you are under someone elses authority, sometimes, you are asked to do unsafe things sometimes.

Yes, you are quite right.  It was the RN's responsibility to monitor that IV site, and HER supervisor should have called the RN on it.

Feeding with a syringe is very dangerous and leads to aspiration. 

When I was a new LPN, it was against hospital policy for me to flush a saline lock or give any IV push meds.  It was out of my scope, and quite frankly I had not been trained on it.  A former classmate of mine, who'd graduated from my schools RN program, used to try and insist I flush the saline locks of my patients after I gave a piggyback antibiotic or med (those I could do, I just couldn't do the flush).  I refused.  One day she tried to get me to flush a saline lock on HER patient because she was in a hurry.  Again I refused.  So she went to our head nurse and complained about me.  Our head nurse told her, "you know LPNs aren't allowed to do IV push flushes and meds at this hospital.  Amy is doing the right thing by saying no, so leave her alone."

Unfortunately, good managers like that can be hard to find.

I do not think they should eliminate anyone's position, especially if they went to a good school.  MA's are not trained as well as what they were back in the day, it used to be a great profession.  LPN's and MA's are almost in our day at the same level, but in these fly by nursing schools, I really don't feel the training is adequate and depending on which state your in, they are not training the Nurses adequately??? Makes you wonder about our education.  So, here' s a thought OTJ, everyone says they don't have the time, but I sure make it, if someone is trailing me, its nice to have backup...

Whoever wrote about the lower level of the Health Care field extincting, they do the brunt of the work, so I do not see why a person with a higher degree would want them to go, they haven't been out on the floor doing the really hard work.  I think its sad, just having a degree or license doesn't make you better than anyone.  If you feel your jobs in jeporady, they do have online schools, I think it would be great to obtain for a higher degree and I heard online classes are a blow.

theala says ...

CATGIRL says ...

I do not think they should eliminate anyone's position, especially if they went to a good school.  MA's are not trained as well as what they were back in the day, it used to be a great profession.  LPN's and MA's are almost in our day at the same level, but in these fly by nursing schools, I really don't feel the training is adequate and depending on which state your in, they are not training the Nurses adequately??? Makes you wonder about our education.  So, here' s a thought OTJ, everyone says they don't have the time, but I sure make it, if someone is trailing me, its nice to have backup...

Whoever wrote about the lower level of the Health Care field extincting, they do the brunt of the work, so I do not see why a person with a higher degree would want them to go, they haven't been out on the floor doing the really hard work.  I think its sad, just having a degree or license doesn't make you better than anyone.  If you feel your jobs in jeporady, they do have online schools, I think it would be great to obtain for a higher degree and I heard online classes are a blow.

Absolutely NOT!  LPNs and MA's are NOTHING alike in terms of scope.  They may share a few tasks, but there is and always has been a HUGE difference between the two.

LPN's are nurses.  They study nursing, and are licensed by the state they practice in.  They can perform assessments, administer all medications, have a basic understanding of pathophysicology (not to the level of the RN, but it meets the needs of their scope), the ability to teach patients, and to assist the RN in implementing care.

Medical Assistants (MA's) take a basic certification course.  They can take vital signs, weights, collect specimens, and assist the physican with physical exams and minor procedures.  They are sometimes trained to do EKG's and administer some medications but they always do these things on the physician's license (meaning the doc is on the hook if the MA messes up).  They cannot do patient teaching--this is a nurse's job!  If an MA is doing patient teaching she is practicing nursing without a license!  Many doctors employ MA's because they can pay them less than LPNs.

It is true that CNA's do a back breaking job.  But LPNs and RNs are still resposible for doing the physical care; any nurse who hides at the nursing station isn't worth her salt. 

And Catgirl, hate to burst your bubble, but as a Registered Nurse, I am indeed "better" than LPNs, CNAs, and MAs.  My training is more indepth and comprehensive, I have greater responsibilities, and do far more than you can imagine.  As a person I am no better than anyone else.  As an RN, I am the superior when it comes to the job.  The RN supervises LPNs and all unlicensed persons working with her.  An MA cannot give orders to an RN, but the RN can and does give orders to the LPN, CNA, and MA.  There is a hierarchy in medicine.  Doctors are at the top, PA's and NP's next, then nurses, then the unlicensed folk.

It is important to remember just what your scope of practice is, because you can get in a great deal of trouble if you go out of it.

I didn't even down rate your post, but your thoughts are ugly.  ON one hand you said you are better than any lower level allied health and above, then said you are superior when it comes to an RN job.  Please watch your verbalization.  I have worked lower than RN to start and its a great stepping stone, do not cast aspersions.  In many a state, yes, MA's are catching up to LPN's, and YES, this is a fact.....  You cannot burst my bubble, as I am reading your thoughts and opinions and well.... Needless to say enough said on that... I know as an RN, BSN, advanced Nurse or whatever it is the top of the food chain but you are dismissing the HARD work the lower level people do.

Although you are so superior, you should also realize the people who get paid the least work the most.... Not saying you do not work hard, don't take it personally, but you are saying that the lower levels are basically slugs.  We ALL know that Higher levels have more education.

You apparentlly no NOTHING about an MA, they are not under "Respondeat Superior", they can also be sued from the patients and that changed in the early 90's with their Registry, they can get malpractice insurance.  They are all trained on performing EKG's, which WOO, those are hard, single average EKG's, regular and Nuclear stress testing also.  Hmm...  The MA can counsel patients on diabetic treatment and how to do home treatments and yes, this also varies by state.  So don't ASSUME, you know what they say????

I think I would know the heirachy, as being a NP, well, but I have respect.  I see you like to give orders and yes, its easy to delegate.  But let me educate you.

An LPN can go off of written or standing orders where and MA has to be verbally told what to do???? That's the only difference as far a clinicals go.  LPN can go for 2 years of school and as I stated earlier obtain a license opposed to a certification.  Most of the students that finish MA school do very well in LPN school as the first if a precursor and each level builds upon the other.  Now, I am not causing a fight.  Please don't take it personally but I don't care if you can order people around and that's your main goal.  It should be RESPECT and enhancing a facility and the patients situation, not just about your level.  BTW, just because you got through school doesn't make you smart it just shows tenacity.  There are a lot of people that would do well, but do not have the time or the money.  Book smart doesn't mean anything....

CATGIRL says ...

I didn't even down rate your post, but your thoughts are ugly.  ON one hand you said you are better than any lower level allied health and above, then said you are superior when it comes to an RN job.  Please watch your verbalization.  I have worked lower than RN to start and its a great stepping stone, do not cast aspersions.  In many a state, yes, MA's are catching up to LPN's, and YES, this is a fact.....  You cannot burst my bubble, as I am reading your thoughts and opinions and well.... Needless to say enough said on that... I know as an RN, BSN, advanced Nurse or whatever it is the top of the food chain but you are dismissing the HARD work the lower level people do.

Although you are so superior, you should also realize the people who get paid the least work the most.... Not saying you do not work hard, don't take it personally, but you are saying that the lower levels are basically slugs.  We ALL know that Higher levels have more education.

You apparentlly no NOTHING about an MA, they are not under "Respondeat Superior", they can also be sued from the patients and that changed in the early 90's with their Registry, they can get malpractice insurance.  They are all trained on performing EKG's, which WOO, those are hard, single average EKG's, regular and Nuclear stress testing also.  Hmm...  The MA can counsel patients on diabetic treatment and how to do home treatments and yes, this also varies by state.  So don't ASSUME, you know what they say????

I think I would know the heirachy, as being a NP, well, but I have respect.  I see you like to give orders and yes, its easy to delegate.  But let me educate you.

An LPN can go off of written or standing orders where and MA has to be verbally told what to do???? That's the only difference as far a clinicals go.  LPN can go for 2 years of school and as I stated earlier obtain a license opposed to a certification.  Most of the students that finish MA school do very well in LPN school as the first if a precursor and each level builds upon the other.  Now, I am not causing a fight.  Please don't take it personally but I don't care if you can order people around and that's your main goal.  It should be RESPECT and enhancing a facility and the patients situation, not just about your level.  BTW, just because you got through school doesn't make you smart it just shows tenacity.  There are a lot of people that would do well, but do not have the time or the money.  Book smart doesn't mean anything....

 

Take a good look at what I said--I was talking about on a professional level, not a personal level and I said exactly that.

You clearly do not understand the difference in scope between a nurse and a medical assistant.  MA's work on the license of the physican.  LPNs work on their own license. 

LPNs scope and role is specified by the state Nurse Practice Act.  The MA role is specified by the physician.  But do not confuse the two:  there are things that MA's cannot do, such as educate patients.  That is not in their scope.  It makes me very uncomfortable that some MAs give injections:  they do not understand the pharmacology of what they are giving, and often cannot find anatomical landmarks correctly.

I certainly treat MAs, CNAs, and LPNs under me with respect; I value their help.  But they must stay within their role and scope, and yes when I am in charge, I am in charge.  Understanding this protects patient safety.

Not everyone can make it through nursing school.  Sadly, some of my students don't make it.  Others fail a course and have to repeat it.  Tenacity has nothing to do with it.  You cannot be successful in nursing school unless you can learn to think critically.

It is not about being "book smart", it is about having the education to do the job.  I am well versed in anatomy and physiology, pathophysiology, and pharmacology.  I have taken courses in microbiology, chemistry, pyschology, and sociology as part of my nursing education.  I need all these things to help me understand what I have to do as a nurse, why it is necessary, and how to do it safely.  I need those courses to be able to adapt to a changing patient situation.   To know what to do in a crisis, and when to do it.  To know when to call the doctor, and when I can handle things on my own under standing orders and hospital policy.  To know the potential consequences of what I do, or of failing to do the right thing at the right time.  That is what nursing education gives me.

You have none of these skills.  You are not on my level professionally speaking.  You could be . . . but you have to go to nursing school first.

That doesn't mean you can't have an opinion about the use of your role.  Just don't fall into the trap of thinking an MA is the same as being a nurse, because it is not.

theala says ...

CATGIRL says ...

I didn't even down rate your post, but your thoughts are ugly.  ON one hand you said you are better than any lower level allied health and above, then said you are superior when it comes to an RN job.  Please watch your verbalization.  I have worked lower than RN to start and its a great stepping stone, do not cast aspersions.  In many a state, yes, MA's are catching up to LPN's, and YES, this is a fact.....  You cannot burst my bubble, as I am reading your thoughts and opinions and well.... Needless to say enough said on that... I know as an RN, BSN, advanced Nurse or whatever it is the top of the food chain but you are dismissing the HARD work the lower level people do.

Although you are so superior, you should also realize the people who get paid the least work the most.... Not saying you do not work hard, don't take it personally, but you are saying that the lower levels are basically slugs.  We ALL know that Higher levels have more education.

You apparentlly no NOTHING about an MA, they are not under "Respondeat Superior", they can also be sued from the patients and that changed in the early 90's with their Registry, they can get malpractice insurance.  They are all trained on performing EKG's, which WOO, those are hard, single average EKG's, regular and Nuclear stress testing also.  Hmm...  The MA can counsel patients on diabetic treatment and how to do home treatments and yes, this also varies by state.  So don't ASSUME, you know what they say????

I think I would know the heirachy, as being a NP, well, but I have respect.  I see you like to give orders and yes, its easy to delegate.  But let me educate you.

An LPN can go off of written or standing orders where and MA has to be verbally told what to do???? That's the only difference as far a clinicals go.  LPN can go for 2 years of school and as I stated earlier obtain a license opposed to a certification.  Most of the students that finish MA school do very well in LPN school as the first if a precursor and each level builds upon the other.  Now, I am not causing a fight.  Please don't take it personally but I don't care if you can order people around and that's your main goal.  It should be RESPECT and enhancing a facility and the patients situation, not just about your level.  BTW, just because you got through school doesn't make you smart it just shows tenacity.  There are a lot of people that would do well, but do not have the time or the money.  Book smart doesn't mean anything....

 

Take a good look at what I said--I was talking about on a professional level, not a personal level and I said exactly that.

You clearly do not understand the difference in scope between a nurse and a medical assistant.  MA's work on the license of the physican.  LPNs work on their own license. 

LPNs scope and role is specified by the state Nurse Practice Act.  The MA role is specified by the physician.  But do not confuse the two:  there are things that MA's cannot do, such as educate patients.  That is not in their scope.  It makes me very uncomfortable that some MAs give injections:  they do not understand the pharmacology of what they are giving, and often cannot find anatomical landmarks correctly.

I certainly treat MAs, CNAs, and LPNs under me with respect; I value their help.  But they must stay within their role and scope, and yes when I am in charge, I am in charge.  Understanding this protects patient safety.

Not everyone can make it through nursing school.  Sadly, some of my students don't make it.  Others fail a course and have to repeat it.  Tenacity has nothing to do with it.  You cannot be successful in nursing school unless you can learn to think critically.

It is not about being "book smart", it is about having the education to do the job.  I am well versed in anatomy and physiology, pathophysiology, and pharmacology.  I have taken courses in microbiology, chemistry, pyschology, and sociology as part of my nursing education.  I need all these things to help me understand what I have to do as a nurse, why it is necessary, and how to do it safely.  I need those courses to be able to adapt to a changing patient situation.   To know what to do in a crisis, and when to do it.  To know when to call the doctor, and when I can handle things on my own under standing orders and hospital policy.  To know the potential consequences of what I do, or of failing to do the right thing at the right time.  That is what nursing education gives me.

You have none of these skills.  You are not on my level professionally speaking.  You could be . . . but you have to go to nursing school first.

That doesn't mean you can't have an opinion about the use of your role.  Just don't fall into the trap of thinking an MA is the same as being a nurse, because it is not.

Its sorta nice that you can read and comprehend but you just reverbed what I had already written.  Thanks for the info, I will forget it quickly.

CATGIRL says ...

I do not think they should eliminate anyone's position, especially if they went to a good school.  MA's are not trained as well as what they were back in the day, it used to be a great profession.  LPN's and MA's are almost in our day at the same level, but in these fly by nursing schools, I really don't feel the training is adequate and depending on which state your in, they are not training the Nurses adequately??? Makes you wonder about our education.  So, here' s a thought OTJ, everyone says they don't have the time, but I sure make it, if someone is trailing me, its nice to have backup...

Whoever wrote about the lower level of the Health Care field extincting, they do the brunt of the work, so I do not see why a person with a higher degree would want them to go, they haven't been out on the floor doing the really hard work.  I think its sad, just having a degree or license doesn't make you better than anyone.  If you feel your jobs in jeporady, they do have online schools, I think it would be great to obtain for a higher degree and I heard online classes are a blow.

You made a point here, and then contradicted yourself. First you say MA's and LPN's arent trained as well because of these so called "fly buy nursing schools". Then you turn around and praise online schools. And what do you mean, exactly, by the phrase "online classes are a blow" ?

Well it does say she is a "student" so..........